City
of South Lyon
Chairperson Weipert
called the meeting to
order at 7:03 p.m.
All
present recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag
Present:
Chairperson Weipert, and Commissioners Kurtzweil, Culbertson,
Lanam
and Bradley, Mosier and Leimbach.
Commissioners Tartaglia and Subotich excused absence.
Also present were Ben
Tallerico (Planning Consultant), Kristen
Cunningham, Director of Community and Economic Development.
Approval of Agenda:
Motion by Mosier, supported by Kurtzweil
Vote
Motion Carried Unanimously
Approval of Minutes:
Motion by Bradley,
supported by Lanam
To approve of the
Minutes for March 13, 2008 with the following changes:
Page 1 First paragraph
Public Comments section, on the fourth line down. Business owners would be
Add (able) to
..
(Chairperson Weipert).
Page 3 Fourth paragraph
second line discussed how __________________?
Page 4 Second paragraph
Add (digital) signs
.
(Planning Consultant Tallerico).
No public comment.
1.
Discussion Sidewalk
Signs
Weipert - Mr. Tallerico
has prepared a sample ordinance for us.
Tallerico After
reviewing the ordinance I started out with a few different definitions that we
could use for what a sandwich board sign is.
I would like comments from the board on the definitions.
Weipert What is a
T-frame sign? Tallerico Not a sandwich board, it is more like an upside down
T.
Weipert I drew
pictures. I would like to make the
signs uniform looking if we are going to do this.
Tallerico That is a
good point. It could be included.
Culbertson I have no
problem with the difference with the signs Bradley This is one definition or
the other. Strike A, B is the one.
Weipert It allows for more of a variety or a wider range.
We will stay with B. Culbertson This allows some flexibility you never
know what will happen.
Tallerico On the second
part I put together some regulations. I think we have some challenges with the
width of the sidewalks downtown.
The sign maximum is 6 sq. foot per sign with a maximum height being 42.
I put in some criteria for the type of material allowed for signs (steel,
iron, metal or wood).
Mosier There are signs
that use a cardboard like material but it is plastic. Tallerico So, add
plastic to #2. Number 3 is one (1)
sign per business. Mosier One (1) sign per business entrance.
Discussion continued on
amount of signs per business entrance and the amount of feet (6) where the sign
can be placed from the front primary entrance.
Weipert This would also
include regulating signs on private property and would be an enforcement issue.
Leimbach Just say one
(1) board per business or one (1) per entrance if there are multiple businesses.
Culbertson What is the
difference between those and all the garage sale signs?
Tallerico The sign
ordinance prohibits temporary signs without a permit and this would be an
enforcement issue. These signs go up on the weekends and come down by Monday.
One (1) sign shall be permitted per customer entrance regardless of the
amount of tenants in a building. .
Does the Commission like
the one that says one (1) sign shall be permitted per customer entrance?
We would add the second
part regardless of the number of tenants.
That is what we will change #3 to.
We will eliminate the
first part and use 2C from Northville.
Sign to be placed 6 from primary business.
Garage sale signs could be regulated also.
Lanam If you put them
on the pavers, is it 8 to the pavers? Cunningham It is 5.
There is an issue with putting them on the pavers and vehicle access.
Randy Clark, 417 S.
Lafayette- I am chair of the DDA
and I have been part of numerous discussions with some of the businesses about
this issue. Parking issues are here, some of which you have already touched on.
A concern was where they would be located in the downtown and we looked
at other cities and because of the size of our sidewalks, it almost appeared to
be a better location if the signs were placed on pavers where the light poles
are. The light poles were placed in
spots that would not interfere with the door openings when cars were parked in
the spaces. We dont have very many
set-back doorways downtown. Another
issue is that some of the businesses outside of B-2 were looking to do something
with signs. Right now all you can
do is place them behind the sidewalk and get a permit. There could be
enforcement issues and that is why a lot of the signs are out and stay out.
How does the Commission feel about other areas of the City having
sidewalk signs behind the sidewalk on private property?
Tallerico This is for
the Central Business District.
Clark That is the other
question, do you use the zoning district or the Downtown Development Authority
boundaries as a definition or look at only the areas that have the streetscape
done. There are a lot of possible
definitions.
Tallerico I always
recommend the zoning district. Clark B-2 is a small area Detroit to Liberty
streets. Tallerico In the other direction, Wells to Washington.
Cunningham These signs
are intended for pedestrians not cars passing by.
Tallerico Someone is
always left out. We are trying to
create a friendly downtown. I
suggest doing it by zoning district not just by DDA.
This way the City has much more control over it.
Clark Our DDA district
is really small. Weipert The B-2 district is even smaller than where the
street scape is. We would be
cutting off the streetscape and it is suppose to be encouraging people to walk.
Cunningham Ben, could
we do an over-lay?
Culbertson Why are we
not just making it City-wide? Why
should others be restricted? The
signs are to advertise specials.
Tallerico The goal is
to get people out of their cars and to walk.
It is a tool the business owners could use downtown.
Discussion continued on
other areas that could use sidewalk signs.
Clark I am surprised at
the comment you made about the signs being for pedestrians.
I spoke to three (3) business owners in Northville.
People would drive by and see the signs then stop.
Traffic moves slow through our downtown and is backed up at least for a
light. I think you need to be
careful to not say it is just for pedestrians.
Tallerico It is
whatever you want your downtown to be.
The goal is to create a dense downtown with walk ability.
Make it easy to cross the streets, or use sandwich boards and eliminate
phone numbers on the signs so people have to get out.
It is a series of things you do to get to the end.
It would be a benefit to give the downtown business owners the ability to
use the sandwich board signs. I
think it is a great idea for downtown and people in Brookfield and other
outside areas dont need it.
Clark The businesses
should be allowed to put a sandwich in front of their business on their sidewalk
in the shopping center, but not out on Pontiac Trail.
On the distance of the signs being 6, it may be physically impossible to
place the sign within 6 of the doorway.
Tallerico I put that in
for a starting point for discussion.
We can go with any amount of footage the Commission desires.
Cunningham Everything
we have based on the streetscape is 5 of walkable space.
That is what we require.
Culbertson I was
reading this as applicable to all businesses within the City limits.
Not just downtown, the DDA or B-2. I assumed it was applicable to the
shopping centers, etc.
Leimbach Traditionally
this kind of advertisement is pedestrian oriented.
You would associate it with the downtown area rather than a shopping
center.
Tallerico This was
written just for the downtown. I
would have to revisit it if I was looking at this City wide.
Kurtzweil Drive down
Pontiac Trail and McDonalds has one of those white plastic signs with black
letters right by the road.
There are approximately 5-6 businesses with the sandwich board signs in
the Brookdale Mall.
Tallerico Those are
usually temporary signs that were paid for to obtain a permit.
Kurtzweil The charm of
the sign is wonderful like in Milford or Northville.
When I was on Pontiac Trail today, I saw that white plastic sign and it
was ugly. I was hoping that in
addition we also include some architectural requirements.
The sign would have to have the character of the business.
Weipert There is
something like that in one of these ordinances that it has to coordinate with
the business.
Clark An example was
Harvest Bread. It still becomes
objective.
Leimbach I think we
want to be careful about how we allow digital type displays.
Culbertson I dont see
anything in these illustrations that could not be used by any business in town.
Leimbach You cant have
a sign so large it obstructs the sidewalk.
Kurtzweil Put together
a brochure (the DDA could) and take some pictures and make a personal call on
these businesses and say this is what we hope that you would do.
Some sort of an educational campaign.
We are looking for signs that are upscale.
Clark That is a good
idea.
Tallerico If we are
going to expand this City wide, we ought to at least let the Chamber know, so it
is not perceived that the DDA and Planning Commission are dictating to the
businesses.
Cunningham Once you
give this you will never get it back, so if it looks bad, we can never get it
back. Limit it to the downtown.
Tallerico The downtown
is the purpose it is set-up for.
You made valid points that maybe it is too confining and we may need to expand
it a little bit.
Leimbach I think we are
opening Pandoras Box if we expand this to the whole City.
The intent for these kinds of signs is for downtown.
That is what other communities have done.
I dont want to see them in all the shopping centers.
Weipert If it is
limited to the downtown, it seems like it is a little more of a special place.
We want people to walk and shop down there.
Bradley I like the
overlay.
Cunningham I think an
overlay is the only way we are going to be able to do it.
The DDA district does not necessarily include all of the businesses.
Maybe include the streetscape and make it part of the downtown.
Ideally it would run from the railroad tracks down to Reynold Sweet.
It is walk-able.
Lanam - The businesses
right downtown have a disadvantage because of parking compared to the malls so
this is something special for the downtown.
With the concern of the maintenance of the signs, maybe add something to
the effect of a like a new appearance.
Cunningham It is a
yearly permit so it will be reviewed.
Tallerico The majority
of the people will want a nice attractive sign.
Culbertson I think
these signs can work in the shopping center with the same exact language.
I dont see why this should not apply to those types of businesses.
People walk through the mall areas.
A vote was taken on this
ordinance for the CBD vs. Citywide.
Five (5) for CBD, two (2) for Citywide
Tallerico What did we
say about 6 from the entrance?
Weipert Clarks concern
is that if we are putting them in that space on the far side of the sidewalk and
we are trying to get them in a position where they dont interfere with car
doors opening, that they may end up
being farther than 6 from the business doorway.
Clark Im thinking
about 12. Leimbach What about 6
from the faηade instead of the entrance.
Tallerico As long as it
is in front of the business. Number 4 we are changing to 5.
Number 5 a temporary sign permit is required.
Only one (1) temporary sign permit or sandwich board is allowed per
business.
Cunningham Can we
change the temporary sign language to sidewalk sign for clarification?
Tallerico For the
permit I chose a calendar year. The
fiscal year is June 30 July 1. It
is easier enforcement if we go with the calendar year.
It gives more control for sign maintenance issues also.
Limit the cost of permits for the people who conform and charge a higher
cost for non-conformer. It should
be a nominal fee $25.00 for compliance, $125.00 for non-compliance.
Cunningham They do
spend time if they have to go out and its not a money making scheme, it is to
cover cost. The Building Department
should cover its own cost; it should not be a drain on the general fund.
It is only $25.00 per year.
Tallerico Dimensions,
materials, location must be attached to the permit.
Application must be approved and signed.
It is standard procedure.
Sandwich board signs shall not be illuminated nor shall they contain movable
parts. Put them out and bring them
back in to prevent theft. Signs
must be removed from public sidewalk if there is any snow accumulation.
Signs only displayed during business hours and placed inside the business
at all other times. Sandwich signs
placed in violation of this section will result in immediate removal of the sign
and the temporary sign permit privileges will be denied for the remainder of the
year. Boards displayed without
approval shall be disposed of at the owners expense.
Sandwich board signs in the public right-of-way may be removed.
Signs must be in good repair to be displayed.
2.
Discussion Blight
Ordinance
Weipert Mr. Tallerico
made the changes.
Tallerico I moved the
description/definitions to the front.
We need to discuss the junk automobile residential, junk automobile
commercial and junk automobile repair.
The difference between the three (3).
Weipert In the
ordinance I found they are all suppose to be inside anyways.
How can we tell how long the vehicle has been there if it is inside?
Tallerico If it is
inside and is enclosed, a roof is not required.
If you want junk in your garage that is your business.
Weipert Do we have any
junk automobile commercial here?
Tallerico We need the
definitions of residential, commercial and excluding all auto repair businesses.
(60-60-90 days).
Leimbach For the
commercial no matter how much they move vehicles around, if it is on the
property, it can only be there for 60 days.
Lanam If it is enforced
you would have the option.
Leimbach Some people
have this down to a science where they move the vehicles around.
All vehicles on property are still there they have just been moved.
Tallerico I think it is
implied. You cannot just move it
around the property.
Culbertson There are a
lot of junk vehicles sitting in the trailer park and some have been there for
years.
Kurtzweil Our ordinance
should be able to fine the owner of the property (such as the trailer park).
Weipert The owner of
the property and the occupant will be fined.
Lanam Is the trailer
park considered residential?
Tallerico I moved open
storage to the front and no changes on the second page.
On the third page you can see #8 which I moved to the front.
On #10 is open storage and I moved that to the front.
Weipert On page four
you took storage and recycled materials and moved that to the bottom of page
one.
Tallerico Causes of
blight I added in the first sentence which is allowed.
Then a, b and c is where I get into definitions of residential,
commercial except for auto repair as defined and an area zoned for auto repair
as defined. Cannot store on any
property junk automobiles unless in an enclosed building.
I changed B to D and C to E.
Leimbach Under G it
use to say securely locked windows kept glass or boarded and still applies for
residential.
Cunningham Do we have
to keep boarded up for commercial? Weipert For commercial we just wanted the
tinted glass. It will look better
than boarded up.
Tallerico As may be
required by City ordinances and that was the last of my changes.
Weipert Can we say that
in a residential area they have to have glass and cannot be boarded up?
Kurtzweil Post a notice
of a responsible person that can be contacted.
If there is a foreclosure, the bank has someone come out and change the
locks. If they can change the
locks, they can post a notice saying in an emergency contact
..
It can even be on a 3 x 5 card. Cunningham Can we put that on vacant
buildings too? Tallerico All properties.
All vacant or foreclosed properties. Leimbach If we issue three (3)
tickets, it then becomes a felony. Tallerico I will bring this back with the
changes and it will go to Attorney Lee next.
3.
Discussion Building
Matrix
Culbertson Start off
with some sort of a pattern. Take
three (3) of the latest projects and see how they would have stacked up against
this matrix. We then come up with
the scores and we can see how they would have scored.
Lanam If they needed
points they could use all brick if they got a minus for their windows.
Work with the developer.
Kurtzweil On the
points, we would aim to reach a total or score a minimum depending on materials
used.
Tallerico We dont want
the buildings all looking the same, you would have the same percentage of
windows in the front, etc. this way, if they want to do any of this they have a
whole lot of other choices to get additional points.
Weipert In some cases,
people are required to put up fences or walls and some put up cinder block walls
or cyclone fences.
Tallerico Yes, we did
talk about putting up decorative fencing up.
Lanam It will be hard
to assign the points. It will be hard to determine a points system.
Weipert One item was
decorated fencing. In some cases
people are required to put up fences or walls.
We also talked about
landscaping and retention basins.
Culbertson I think
there are a thousand different choices of landscape materials.
What if someone comes in and we dont have that particular item listed?
Lanam Take a couple of
projects and go through them and see if we want to make adjustments.
Then we will know. We can
sit here and argue the points and everything else, but until we apply it to a
project we wont know whether we are getting close.
Ultimately, we need to come up with something in the end that this many
points is a platinum project etc
.
Tallerico That is tough
since you dont get your certification until the building is done. Cunningham
We are going to have to assume they are going to do and it would have to be
noted on the site plan.
Tallerico This could
outweigh a lot of stuff that we think is visual.
Like HVAC or a roof we dont even see and it will diminish what we want
to see.
Cunningham Bring three
(3) examples in for the meeting in May.
Then discuss after Ben rates them.
Then we will do the matrix. Tallerico I will change from too high to
take out.
Weipert The meeting is
May 8, 2008.
4.
Discussion Landscape
Matrix
Tallerico The City has
a good tree ordinance. Leimbach What we are trying to accomplish having this
as part of the site plan review is that the developer knows landscaping is an
important issue. We are not looking to just get a minimum.
This does not connect to the building matrix.
They are two separate issues.
Kurtzweil I will
volunteer to re-do this matrix.
They only put in what they are required to.
I will e-mail it to Kristen. (Leimbach to work on matrix also).
New Business
Parks and Recreation Mater Plan Review
Weipert Do we need to
approve this? Cunningham No you do not.
You just need to review it and know that it is going forward and these
are the projects they are looking at doing.
You dont have a whole lot of input on it between Council and Parks and
Recreation anyway.
Weipert Some of this is
really what we do. Asking people to
continue to link their developments to the rails to trails and encouraging
community parks. Tallerico If you did a full update of the Master Plan it
could be referenced. Cunningham It is mostly just so you are aware that these
are the three (3) sections that they updated and those are the changes that they
wanted to make. They are having
their public hearing in May. Culbertson I have a general comment just as a
citizen. There is a lot of coverage
about different cities and parks putting in senior trails with exercise.
I see nothing in the five (5) year plan.
I would suggest they at least give it some consideration. Cunningham We
talked about that for McHattie Park.
I encourage you to come to the public hearing meeting too. Weipert Do
we need to do anything to formally approve it?
Cunningham No, I just
wanted you to be aware of it and if you have any comments you can come to the
public hearing and get on the record. (May 7, 2008).
Staff Reports
Blight Ordinance in two (2) weeks.
Public hearing for the re-zoning for 40 acres at the end of Mill Street.
They
are asking to rezone the IRO to RM-1 with conditions.
Look for a mailed packet.
Motion by Culbertson,
supported by Bradley
To adjourn the meeting
at 9:25 p.m.
Vote
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
_____________________
_
____________________
_______
Pam Weipert, Chairperson
Marianne Jamison, Recording Secretary
________________________
Keith Bradley, Secretary