CITY OF SOUTH LYON

REGULAR CITY COUNCIL MEETING

March 13, 2006

Mayor Doyle called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.

Mayor Doyle led those present in the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag

PRESENT: Mayor Doyle

Council Members: Dryer, Kivell, Kopkowski, Maida, Morelli and Wedell

City Manager Cook

Attorney Lee

City Clerk/Treasurer Zemke

Department Heads: Collins, Martin & Renwick

APPROVAL OF MINUTES:

CM 3-1-06- APPROVAL OF MINUTES – FEBRUARY 27, 2006

Motion by Dryer, supported by Morelli

To approve the minutes of the regular meeting of February 27, 2006 as written

VOTE: MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY

APPROVAL OF MONTHLY BILLS:

Council Member Maida stated that on the monthly payroll, there appears to be a new person and asked what position this is. City Clerk/Treasurer Zemke stated that this is the part-time clerical position in the Bookkeeper’s office that had been vacant for some time.

Councilman Dryer asked what vehicles we have under Administration that would have required maintenance. Superintendent Renwick stated that we have two Building Department vehicles, which fall under the Administration.

Councilman Wedell questioned the payment of $206 for flashlight bulbs. City Clerk/Treasurer Zemke stated that this is for the Fire Department, and we can follow up with the Fire Department for additional information.

Councilman Morelli questioned why some of the bills for HRC are listed as engineering and some are listed as professional. Superintendent Renwick stated that some of this would be for updating of our GIS maps, etc. and engineering could be review of site plans or other projects that are taking place. Council Member Kopkowski stated that she would like to see what services we are paying HRC for. Discussion was held on receiving a list of site plans that they are reviewing. City Manager Cook stated that he had provided a list of site plans that are under review, these are the site plans that would fall under the General Fund. Council Member Maida asked if they could be listed. City Manager Cook stated that we have a limited amount of space for descriptions that is based on the space allowed by the computer program.

Councilman Dryer asked what the payment for advertising in the Yellow Pages is for. City Clerk/Treasurer Zemke stated that this is for the historical museum.

Councilman Dryer questioned the payment for $195,482. City Manager Cook stated that this is for the State Revolving Fund payment for the sewer plant.

CM 3-2-06- APPROVAL OF MONTHLY BILLS

Motion by Wedell, supported by Kivell

To approve the monthly bills as presented

VOTE: MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY

APPROVAL OF AGENDA

CM 3-3-06 – APPROVAL OF AGENDA

Motion by Dryer, supported by Kopkowski

To approve the agenda as presented

VOTE: MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY

CITIZENS SUGGESTIONS: None

OLD BUSINESS:

Finalize Community Survey

Mayor Doyle stated that all of the changes requested at the last meeting have been made. He stated that although the map is missing some of the streets in Carriage Trace, we can still get a general idea of where the individuals live.

Councilman Kivell suggested that question #10 be changed to read “The City is a member of the South Lyon Area Recreation Council (SLARC). Would you support SLARC in becoming an authority that would have the ability to levy additional millage to support expanded recreation programs within the Authority boundaries? If so, how much?”

Councilman Dryer asked that the response in question #8 be changed switching the order of important and not important. He further asked how many times a year a newsletter is sent and asked if the survey could be packaged with the newsletter. It was stated that a newsletter is put out twice per year. Discussion was held on the difficulty in collating the information if 2,000 responses were received versus 200.

Discussion was held on possibly getting the survey on the website in the future. City Clerk/Treasurer Zemke stated that it is an issue of control. Discussion was held on the difficulty of identifying who responds and how many times.

Discussion was held on other options to look at in the future.

Appointments – Mayor Doyle

Mayor Doyle stated that we have one ZBA appointment to make and two Planning Commission appointments. He stated that Maggie Kurtzwel currently serves on the City’s Parks and Recreation Commission and has served in that capacity for some time. She is an attorney by trade and has been involved in many community issues.

Councilman Dryer stated that in the future he would appreciate if they could have some information on the people who are being appointed prior to the meeting.

The question was asked if this will affect her appointment on the Parks and Recreation Commission. Mayor Doyle stated that it would not. Ms. Kurtzwel stated that at some point, she will be resigning from the Parks and Recreation, however there are some issues coming forth that she would like to be a part of. At the April meeting they will be working on the Master Plan and the general walk-through of the parks will take place in May and June. Furthermore, she would like an opportunity to thank the members of the Commission she has had opportunity to work with as well as Kristen Cunningham of the City. She has been Secretary of the Commission and would like to give the opportunity to elect a new Secretary at their April meeting and will be available to provide for a smooth and consistent transition.

CM 3-4-06 – APPOINTMENT TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION

Motion by Doyle, supported by Dryer

To appoint Margaret Kurtzweil of 939 West Hills Drive to the Planning Commission

VOTE: MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY

Mayor Doyle thanked Ms. Kurtzweil for volunteering her time. Ms. Kurtzweil stated that she would like to thank Council for their consideration and stated that she does have a commitment to the City and plans on being here for a long time.

Mayor Doyle stated that we have a second appointment to the Planning Commission. Richard Subotich had been on the Commission and situations occurred that caused him to resign. Mr. Subotich stated that they had some very strong personal issues to deal with and the loss of his wife’s job. Fortunately, they were able to start a new home business and came out on top. He stated that he prematurely resigned from the Planning Commission. They have two little ones and one on the way and was extremely stressful thinking about having to leave the community. They have lived in South Lyon since 1997 and have fixed up an older home and then built a new home in Carriage Trace. He stated that he is happy to be able to serve again. He stated that he is familiar with a lot of the issues currently before the Planning Commission and has stayed informed about current projects.

Councilman Dryer asked Mr. Subotich how long he served on the Planning Commission. Mr. Subotich stated that he served on the Planning Commission since 1999 and on the Parks and Recreation prior to that. He stated that his wife has also served on the City’s Compensation Commission.

Councilman Wedell asked how long it has been since he resigned. Mr. Subotich stated that it was less than a year ago, probably closer to six months.

Councilman Morelli stated that Richard did a great job on the Planning Commission and was missed when he resigned.

CM 3-5-06 – APPOINTMENT TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION

Motion by Doyle, supported by Morelli

To appoint Richard Subotich of 1329 Coach House Lane to the Planning Commission

VOTE: MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY

Mayor Doyle stated that it has been close to nine years since there has been a City Council liaison to the Zoning Board of Appeals. He stated that he feels that there is some merit in having a City Council voice on that board. Given the fact that Ron Morelli has both Planning and Zoning experience, makes this an easy choice.

CM 3-5-06 – APPOINTMENT TO THE ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS

Motion by Doyle, supported by Wedell

To appoint Councilman Ron Morelli to the Zoning Board of Appeals

VOTE: MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY

The question was asked if there are any other liaison positions on other boards. Mayor Doyle stated that you cannot have a Council liaison on Planning Commission. Attorney Lee stated that an appeal to the ZBA would be to Circuit Court, whereas, an appeal to the Planning Commission would be to Council, which is the distinction.

Discussion was held on having a liaison to the Parks and Recreation Commission. Attorney Lee stated that he cannot see any conflict that would prohibit that.

Compensation Commission

City Clerk/Treasurer Zemke stated that at the last meeting, Council requested information regarding the meeting of the Compensation Commission. The Compensation Commission can only meet in the odd years. Furthermore, by the next time that Commission can meet, all of the terms will have expired. The Commission would have to be reappointed.

Discussion was held on how these appointments would be made given the staggered terms.

Mayor Doyle stated that we can revisit this issue next year. Attorney Lee stated that we should probably make any appointments by March next year in order to meet the time frame set forth in the ordinance. He further stated that given that next year is a Council election year, it would be his recommendation that any recommendation by the Commission by approved or rejected prior to the filing deadline.

Discussion of City Engineering Services

Council Member Kopkowski stated that she is somewhat confused by the letter from Wade-Trim and that it was given before Council had a chance for discussion. City Manager Cook stated that it was predicated on prior discussion that had taken place over several meetings and is simply added to the information available because there was some discussion regarding low bid versus quality base selection. This is the position of quality-based selection, which is the position of the Engineering Profession and is the position he has tried to take, but it is a policy decision that Council has a right to make. Council Member Kopkowksi stated that her confusion is why Wade-Trim was under the impression that we wanted to bid out our consulting engineering for every job. She does not think that this was expressed at all. She does not want to bid out consulting engineering for every job, but rather get a consulting engineer and give them a contract for a set number of years and bid out our construction on a regular basis. She would like to have someone represent us as the City Engineer, but not be allowed to bid on construction jobs.

Mayor Doyle questioned what is driving this discussion. He stated that at the last meeting there were some inaccurate comments made regarding the long-term financial condition of the City. He stated that the City is not in financial straits, which is demonstrated by our audit and by what we have in the bank. There seems to be a notion that there is a pending crisis. He stated that we have a long-standing relationship with HRC. We have seen that their rates are in line with what the going rate is. To simply say at this point that we want to make a change, he has to question why. He stated that he has his own ideas why Randy Clark has brought this up. He further questioned if any member of the Council in the past, currently or in the future plan on working for Mr. Clark. All members of Council indicated “no” to the question.

Councilman Kivell stated that it is a matter of trying to delegate where our costing is, and there has been no attempt to get any kind of cost from another engineering firm since HRC came on line. Mayor Doyle stated that he is not opposed to periodically going through “sanity check”. He stated that almost every community around here has one engineering firm either in-house or they use a firm like HRC. The City of Novi uses a short list of about four engineering firms. He stated he has no problem with checking, but his concern is that there is no reason to be doing this other than someone has “an axe to grind” with HRC.

Council Member Kopkowski stated that her drive is that being in the business having worked with very large engineering firms in the past, in today’s economy, it is just smart to check and as Council Members we owe that to taxpaying citizens.

Councilman Morelli stated that coming from the Planning side, every single project goes before HRC, which is a professional service, very similar to what the City Attorney does for us and Vilican Leman does for us. However, on the other hand if there is a construction project that the City is doing, he does see a problem with the consultant overseeing their own work. He does not know how other communities handle this. He stated that HRC may be giving us the best price, but in looking over the invoices, a very high number is going to HRC. He has no desire to get rid of HRC unless we find out that they are overcharging us by 40%, but he does not think that is the case. He would feel much more comfortable if we knew that their price is fair. Furthermore, in his dealings, if he has to pay 1-2% more to work with someone he is comfortable with, he does not have a problem with that, but is not willing to pay 25% more.

Discussion was held on past experience with City engineers. Councilman Kivell stated that this is not a reflection on that type of issue. Discussion was held on the Wastewater Treatment Plant project. Councilman Kivell stated that not one other entity had opportunity to bid on that project. If you save ½% on that project, it would be a great deal. He stated that there are plenty of opportunities for this community to gain advantage having these companies bid against each other.

Mr. Keith McCormack from HRC stated that this is the same struggle councils across Michigan have to deal with in trying to protect City’s interest through the bid process, especially dealing with professional services like planners, attorneys, engineers, etc. It is more difficult to quantify because they do not make a product or lay asphalt. MDOT for example, who solicits on a project-by-project basis does not look at the price at all. They select the engineer first then open the price to see if it is reasonable, but they do not compare prices. He stated that he is very familiar with the process that Novi has, and many times they have selected the firm because of price. But, what you end up with is someone not of the same quality. HRC is a full service engineering firm and has assisted the City with roads, water, sewer, traffic and even some architectural services. They have a staff of 230 people at their disposal. He stated that a smaller firm with 20-30 people are going to be cheaper. If you look at cost primarily in the selection process, they are not going to be able to compete. However, if you look at similar firms, HRC is very competitive. Their multiplier is at or below the firms of their size and their caliber.

Councilman Kivell stated that this is called overhead, and depending on the project, you can get the same competent job done by a smaller entity. Mr. McCormack stated that they have to go through this with a number of their clients. He is not worried about this process. If the City goes through an RFP, they will respond with a very good proposal. He understands what Council is struggling with, he has seen it a number of times because you are trying to look at this like a sidewalk contractor, but it is different because it is a lot harder to get an idea of what they are doing all the time and to define it and to quantify it. Most of the projects they are doing for the City are not that big, with the exception of the Wastewater Treatment Plant. Most of the road projects are $400-500,000 projects with much less for engineering, so you are not going to attract the larger firms with a wide-range of service. You could end up with one for the roads one for water, etc. and there are some communities that do that, but most of the time they have a City Engineer on staff to keep track of everything. It tends to require more on-staff expertise. He is not aware of a community the size of South Lyon that can do that all the time. If you are going to go through that process, you have to keep in mind that you will have to have someone to go through the process and evaluate then follow through.

Discussion was held on the multiplier. Mr. McCormack stated that the multiplier is a factor. The City is sent an invoice for labor and mark it up 2.8 times which covers the overhead, vehicles, office, computers, etc. That covers everything. You will not get a separate bill for all of the reproduction costs. When they submit an invoice, it is very clear whether it is site plan review, design engineering, topographical, what project, what task, etc. and all the people involved and the multiplier.

The question was asked about the construction versus professional work. City Manager Cook stated that we have a contractual obligation with the contractor versus professional services, which are charged for engineering. Councilman Morelli discussed construction costs versus engineering. He stated that it might be justified, but we need clarification. Mr. McCormack stated that they have appreciated the opportunity to work with the number of projects for the City. The staff works with them on a day to day basis, but all Council sees, for the most part, is the invoices. They have not been asked to attend Council meetings up to this point. You have a great staff and can answer most of the questions, but he should have insisted that they attend more meetings so Council can see who they are and that there is a face behind those invoices. They do give a detailed invoice, and it is always within budget limits. They always give the City a proposal outlining what their services are and what tasks and a limit. When you receive it, the staff ensures that it is within the limit approved. The question was asked if there is a difference between doing a professional service and doing engineering services. Mr. McCormack stated that it is always a professional service. He stated part of what they could do is provide status reports listing what projects they are working on and what services they provided on those projects on a monthly basis.

The question was asked if they received the actual invoice, would they be able to determine the quantitative facts much the same as a status reports. Mr. McCormack stated that it will tell you what staff worked on a certain projects, rates and tasks. He further explained the invoice including detail design, bidding, construction engineering, observation, quality control, etc.

The question was asked of Mr. McCormack, if he had a choice whether they would rather be the consultant or active construction engineer. Mr. McCormack stated that it is difficult because the City does not have a lot of general engineering services. He stated that you are looking at the larger communities that have a consulting engineer who handles plan reviews and observation and engineers that bid out projects that are $1-2 Million or more so they are larger projects. You might find it more difficult to go that route.

Councilman Morelli stated that he would like to know how many cities do it that way or do they do it the way we are currently doing it. Mr. McCormack stated that it is far more common to have one engineer to do everything with a 3-5 year contract. The other advantage is if you have multiple engineers working on different projects, you do not have the wealth of information. He stated that you loose that aspect by bidding out individual projects.

Mayor Doyle stated that he has talked with the Department Heads who deal with this every day, and he has never heard anything but positive comments about HRC. HRC has a huge knowledge of the City. He is not opposed to going through and bidding out a non-critical project as a sanity check, at the City Manager’s discretion.

Council Member Kopkowski asked Mr. McCormack if the City needs a big engineering firm as large as HRC. It was stated that the benefit is that they have the expertise to handle anything that the City would have. Mr. McCormack stated that the City has done a great job with the major infrastructure. The water and wastewater plant is set for the next 20 years and the roads are overall in great condition. The major thing the City has is the older sewers and we have talked with the administration about doing a systematic review. The other issue is the water mains. The City has a lot of 4 and 6 inch water mains. The City is doing a little at a time, which is not a very big project, and there are a lot of smaller firms that could do that. He is ethics bound to give the best advice he can, which is that the City would be far better served to have everything handled by the same firm and just know that this is going to be a 3 or five year contract and handle it with an optional two-year extension. Councilman Kivell stated that he feels that this is the best way to approach it. If you change to another firm for another five-year cycle, it does not take that long to come about. We have knowledgeable people in the City and we have the GIS mapping. It would not be that difficult for a good engineering firm to glean what our real situation is.

Discussion was held on the Geographic Information System, which is the process of transferring the information of where utilities are located and transferring them onto a database and then to a map. Mr. McCormack stated that Oakland County, every two years, fly all of Oakland County and provides a geo-rectified map. We have located storm, sanitary and water location, size, year built, last time cleaned, last break, etc. that used to be housed in the back of minds, into a digital form that is recoverable.

Superintendent Martin explained how HRC has been available to them at any time, even on a Saturday morning to help with a watermain break. Further, he described a Wastewater plant that came in less than 1% overrun. Council Member Kopkowski stated that we also pay for that service. She stated that she is not saying anything against HRC and does not believe that anything that is being said is untrue, we just don’t know.

Discussion was held on where to go from here. Mr. McCormack stated that he has enough emotionally involved in this community and he would like to help in getting the information needed to make the decision. He stated that he has other RFP information available from other communities and can help go through that process and caution about what traps to avoid. He stated that he does want to caution that cost should not be the overriding factor. The City could receive 6-12 proposals, which will indicate that they will do everything that Council wants. It will be a little bit of investment to go through this process. It is important to have spelled out what kind of services you want to see.

City Manager Cook stated that earlier it was suggested that we see what other communities are doing. Council Member Kopkowski also asked for the complete list of services that HRC provides the City.

Mayor Doyle stated that we do not want to micromanage the process; that is what we have a City Manager for, but we need to know what we are signing off of.

City Manager Cook stated that in regards to engineering versus professional services, General fund does not generally have any active projects. Major streets, for example has engineering services that we have to charge off as Act 51 funds, some of which is done through transfer. Local or Capital Improvement funds we charge both professional and contractual services because we have to report back to the Michigan Department of Transportation, depending on area.

Councilman Morelli stated that according to the City Charter Professional Services do not have to be bid out, but construction services do. Mr. McCormack stated that the distinction is that the construction would be those buying the pipe and putting it into the ground. It is very typical to exclude engineering services from the bidding process.

It was stated that it was nice to see the engineers here to address these concerns. City Manager Cook stated that they also monitor the agendas and minutes of the meetings to keep apprised as to what is going on.

Councilman Dryer read an excerpt from the Michigan Municipal Review March/April 2006 edition. “If you have been in a community you get to know the people, you get to know the goals and objectives of the community you get to know the way that community wishes to treat it’s citizens and its wishes to plan projects. When engineers change frequently that continuity just does not exist. “ He stated that there is a large difference in a cheap engineer and a real engineer and if we piece meal, it could cause us some major problems.

Attorney Lee relayed a problem the City had years ago by using two different engineers in acquiring a certain parcel for a water tower. The result was the loss of 80 feet of property.

Councilman Kivell stated that this is the first step. He stated that he does not think that anyone felt that they would come to some immediate conclusion. He further stated that nobody is looking to push HRC out, but simply questioning that the price was justifiable. We need to be the ones that evaluate where the City’s best interests are.

NEW BUSINESS: None

COUNCIL COMMENTS:

Mayor Doyle stated that the Taste & Expo will be March 19^th at the High School. It is a great family event from 12:00 noon to 4:00 p.m.

Councilman Wedell stated that at the last meeting, we talked about a budget workshop prior to budget being presented to Council. City Manager Cook stated that it will not be prior to presentation to Council, but rather prior to Council adoption in May. Budget will be presented to Council in April. He stated that he is vested in presenting a budget to Council and Council will have opportunity to give input prior to adoption. Councilman Wedell stated that he was hoping to give input prior to presentation. City Manager Cook stated that Council has roughly 30 days to review it. Councilman Dryer stated that sitting down with the City Manager to review generic questions is beneficial and the more detailed questions can be handled during the workshop.

Councilman Wedell stated that in the last packet there was a letter from the Department of Environmental Quality about the evaluation of our Water Department, which passed with flying colors.

Council Member Maida stated that she received a call from the Meadows of South Lyon wondering about the results of vacating of the alley. Attorney Lee stated that the Clerk has not gotten the recorded copy back from Oakland County. As an owner of the property each side will get half of the alley, but would not be confirmed until the recording of the evidence of the vacation.

Council Member Kopkowski asked if we have arrived at a date for the next meeting with Lyon Township. Mayor Doyle stated that we are looking at the 22^nd or 29^th. We will know more by the next meeting. Mayor Doyle stated that as long as we get the majority of the members, we will be doing well.

Councilman Kivell asked who was handling the tape recording of the meetings. Ms. Jackie Webster stated that she is a high school student and was contacted by her teacher at the high school after Ms. Zemke had contacted her. Councilman Kivell stated that he is very pleased to hear that the funds from the Millennium franchise fees that the City has donated to the schools has gone to educating the students.

The question was asked about the sale of Millennium. Attorney Lee stated that they are not buying Millennium but only buying certain aspects of Millennium. Once we have checked against the FCC standards, about their fiscal responsibility, he will report back to Council.

Council Member Dryer asked if anything has been scheduled yet for the mountain bike trail at Volunteer Park. Superintendent Renwick stated that he has not yet heard anything. Councilman Dryer stated that he will check with that Commission.

Councilman Dryer stated that there has been discussion about having two members of each community coming forward to discuss South Lyon Recreation Authority to look at the Article of Incorporation and the weighted voting, etc. City Manager Cook stated that he has had no discussion with Chris Olson regarding any meeting on these issues.

It was stated that the Schools will be coming before the Planning Commission at their next meeting for discussion about their additional entrance to the high school.

CM 3-6-06 – ADJOURNMENT

Motion by Wedell, supported by Maida

To adjourn the meeting at 9:09 p.m.

VOTE: MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY

Respectfully Submitted,

_______________________________ ________________________________

John Doyle, Jr. Julie C. Zemke

Mayor City Clerk/Treasurer